Hi Ian, a valid point but unfortunately the reserve is only open to B.O.S members by prior arrangement with the warden (Alan Peters)hence why no directions to the site have been posted.For those keen to see the Egret may I suggest contacting the B.O.S via the link above and request permission for a visit. Occasionally we are sent photos of birds that have set up residence on private land with no public access, these pictures are posted as they may be of interest to some, but it is never our intention to appear at all incestuous.
Thanks for your comments Ian. I think that if it were a Common Yellowthroat at Bicester Wetlands then access would be arranged without any problems but the truth is that GW Egret isn't such a rarity any more in the county that too many people are going to get upset about access. After the first one four or five years ago it's been more or less annual since then I believe. I agree with Jason's comment, get it touch with them and I'm sure that something can be arranged.
Hi Ben, as no one else has replied I thought that I would have a go. I must admit that I did have to look quite carefully at the photos so it's not that obvious. Firstly GW Egret doesn't necessarily have to have a yellow bill if that's what's bothering you. Also Little has yellow feet which the above bird doesn't seem to have (one has to beware of muddy feet though!). Apart from that it's down to the size of the bird and the proportions. Unfortunately it's very difficult to judge the size from a photo of a single bird like this. However the flight shot shows quite a large bulge down in the neck which is characteristic of GW with Little tending to have a less bulging neck profile. Also the length of the legs trailing beyond the tail would tend to suggest GW over Little. Overall the bird has quite a large & chunky feel to it whereas Little Egrets are more elegant. Hope this helps
Thanks. I wasn't basing this on bill or foot colour, which I know can be variable, and hard to see in photos. The top (non-flight) photo looks to me like a small heron with a rather fine bill - just like a Little. I just can't see this as an almost Grey Heron sized & proportioned bird.
I don't think that the flight pictures show a particularly bulging neck profile as expected for a GWE, or that some degree of bulge rules out LE - see these examples:
Also, the feet look proportionately far too big to me. Have a look at a few GWE and LE pictures and one thing that strikes is how small footed GWE looks compared to the relatively big feet of Little.
I'm not saying that there wasn't a GWE at Bicester at some stage, just that I'm not convinced that these photos don't show a Little Egret.
I was interested in this record for obvious reasons. But - and I confess photos don't always help -I must admit this bird looks a bit odd for GWE. On my screen the flight shot in profile seems to show a gape line that doesn't go beyond the eye, which it should on GWE. Also, on my screen, the feet do seem to be paler than the legs. Or am I trying to hard to see stuff on quality of pic? Looks a bit 'squashed up' too.
Interesting stuff! I'll freely admit that I'm not absolutely certain of this ID but for the reasons that I stated I'm tending to come down on the GWE side. With regards to the points that Ben raises, as far as the neck profile in flight is concerned, whilst LE does have a slight bulge (as illustrated in the two links posted) in GWE there is much more of a kink (almost a U shape) which you can see in the flight shots of our bird and the shots that Ben posted and I would go on this more than anything else. I take the point about the feet seeming rather large but for me the neck profile is the most important feature. With regards to the gape, I've taken a look at some GWE photos on Bird Guides and whilst this gape projection is often present I'd suggest that it's not always easy to see. I'd be very interested to hear what others have to say regarding this ID.
Apparently Ian Lewington has taken a good look at the photos and has decided that it's a Little Egret after all. I think that he'll be posting something to explain why in due course but in the mean time well done to those who stuck their necks out. I stand corrected and have certainly learnt a lot about egret identification.
An interesting debate about the Egret, especially Ian's arguments regarding ratios. But while he suggests the bill length divided by the jowl is 5.5-6 in Little and 4 in GWE, doesn't the picture of the Little posted on the 2nd give a ratio of 4? Also, I think Ian may have underestimated the jowl length of the Bicester bird, as this may be disguised by the poor definition / lighting in the photo and seems to extend beyond the point where he has taken his measurement - taking the ratio more into his suggested GWE territory?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Ian, a valid point but unfortunately the reserve is
ReplyDeleteonly open to B.O.S members by prior arrangement with the warden (Alan Peters)hence why no directions to the site have been posted.For those keen to see the Egret may
I suggest contacting the B.O.S via the link above and request permission for a visit.
Occasionally we are sent photos of birds that have set up residence on private land with no public access, these
pictures are posted as they may be of interest to some,
but it is never our intention to appear at all incestuous.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments Ian. I think that if it were a Common Yellowthroat at Bicester Wetlands then access would be arranged without any problems but the truth is that GW Egret isn't such a rarity any more in the county that too many people are going to get upset about access. After the first one four or five years ago it's been more or less annual since then I believe. I agree with Jason's comment, get it touch with them and I'm sure that something can be arranged.
ReplyDeleteStop moaning and go over the fence mate.
ReplyDeleteWhy isn't the bird in these photos a Little Egret?
ReplyDeleteHi Ben, as no one else has replied I thought that I would have a go. I must admit that I did have to look quite carefully at the photos so it's not that obvious. Firstly GW Egret doesn't necessarily have to have a yellow bill if that's what's bothering you. Also Little has yellow feet which the above bird doesn't seem to have (one has to beware of muddy feet though!). Apart from that it's down to the size of the bird and the proportions. Unfortunately it's very difficult to judge the size from a photo of a single bird like this. However the flight shot shows quite a large bulge down in the neck which is characteristic of GW with Little tending to have a less bulging neck profile. Also the length of the legs trailing beyond the tail would tend to suggest GW over Little. Overall the bird has quite a large & chunky feel to it whereas Little Egrets are more elegant. Hope this helps
ReplyDeleteHi Adam
ReplyDeleteThanks. I wasn't basing this on bill or foot colour, which I know can be variable, and hard to see in photos. The top (non-flight) photo looks to me like a small heron with a rather fine bill - just like a Little. I just can't see this as an almost Grey Heron sized & proportioned bird.
I don't think that the flight pictures show a particularly bulging neck profile as expected for a GWE, or that some degree of bulge rules out LE - see these examples:
Little Egrets:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uYdLH-IM33w/SKvDmtx_TNI/AAAAAAAADN0/0CpGnTnuk_4/s320/Blog+Little+Egret+flight+18+8+08+IMG_7558.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/44958430@N05/5882543434/
http://www.stevepinker.com/Other-continents/Israel/little-egret-in-flight/746278844_x2mcf-L.jpg
GWEgret:
http://www.galleryofbirds.com/Europe/Euopre%20birds%20main/Great%20White%20Egret%20flight%20Donana%207166.jpg
http://www.suerobphotography.com/resources/Watermarks/Great%20White%20Egret%20flying%20at%20Tendaba%20300dpi%20IMG_4811%20copy%20wm.jpg
Also, the feet look proportionately far too big to me. Have a look at a few GWE and LE pictures and one thing that strikes is how small footed GWE looks compared to the relatively big feet of Little.
I'm not saying that there wasn't a GWE at Bicester at some stage, just that I'm not convinced that these photos don't show a Little Egret.
Cheers
Ben
Hi
ReplyDeleteI was interested in this record for obvious reasons. But - and I confess photos don't always help -I must admit this bird looks a bit odd for GWE. On my screen the flight shot in profile seems to show a gape line that doesn't go beyond the eye, which it should on GWE. Also, on my screen, the feet do seem to be paler than the legs. Or am I trying to hard to see stuff on quality of pic? Looks a bit 'squashed up' too.
Regards
Mick Cunningham
Interesting stuff! I'll freely admit that I'm not absolutely certain of this ID but for the reasons that I stated I'm tending to come down on the GWE side. With regards to the points that Ben raises, as far as the neck profile in flight is concerned, whilst LE does have a slight bulge (as illustrated in the two links posted) in GWE there is much more of a kink (almost a U shape) which you can see in the flight shots of our bird and the shots that Ben posted and I would go on this more than anything else. I take the point about the feet seeming rather large but for me the neck profile is the most important feature. With regards to the gape, I've taken a look at some GWE photos on Bird Guides and whilst this gape projection is often present I'd suggest that it's not always easy to see. I'd be very interested to hear what others have to say regarding this ID.
ReplyDeleteApparently Ian Lewington has taken a good look at the photos and has decided that it's a Little Egret after all. I think that he'll be posting something to explain why in due course but in the mean time well done to those who stuck their necks out. I stand corrected and have certainly learnt a lot about egret identification.
ReplyDeleteAn interesting debate about the Egret, especially Ian's arguments regarding ratios.
ReplyDeleteBut while he suggests the bill length divided by the jowl is 5.5-6 in Little and 4 in GWE, doesn't the picture of the Little posted on the 2nd give a ratio of 4?
Also, I think Ian may have underestimated the jowl length of the Bicester bird, as this may be disguised by the poor definition / lighting in the photo and seems to extend beyond the point where he has taken his measurement - taking the ratio more into his suggested GWE territory?